“Men are Particularly Good at Not Listening” (English)

“Men are particularly good at not listening”

Azza Karam is the first woman to head the World Alliance of Religions for Peace, which will
soon be meeting in Germany. How does the Egyptian-born leader make herself heard by
powerful men of God? And how does she want to unite the faithful?

DIE ZEIT: Professor Karam, you hold one of the most unusual offices a woman can hold: Since 2020, you have been the Secretary-General of Religions for Peace, although almost all high-ranking religious leaders are still men. How difficult is your job?

Azza Karam: Anyway, it’s not as difficult as you think! First of all, we have a lot of women in Religions for Peace because we don’t just recruit partners from the religious hierarchies, but we also gather believers from the grassroots who make a difference in their countries. You don’t have to be a bishop or an imam or a rabbi to do that. Our World Federation has been around for over fifty years, but today we make sure we have young people in our ranks. But I admit that as a leader, I often have to repeat myself in order to be heard. Some simply close their ears when a woman speaks.

ZEIT: And what do you do then?

Karam: My voice gets louder, my words get sharper – that’s the reflex. I try not to give in to it. Otherwise, you are accused of being emotional or hysterical. Many female bosses struggle with this accusation. I used to often wonder why many women in leadership positions acted as if they were men. Now I understand.

ZEIT: People management is not new to you; you last worked at the United Nations in New York for almost twenty years. What exactly is it that you are only now noticing?

Karam: That the way we speak is a ­reaction to not listening to each other. This not listening also happens with women, but men are particularly good at shutting their ears.

ZEIT: But aren’t male bosses also ignored? Pope Francis, for example, has whole armies of bishops who not only don’t listen to him but fight him.

Karam: I don’t deny that, but it’s hard to compare. My advantage is that, although I have to gather the religious leaders and master a common task with them, I am not a religious leader myself. The advantage of the Pope is that he traditionally represents an authority that is supported by the Vatican.

ZEIT: You have a small office in Manhattan but in close proximity to UN headquarters.

Karam: Yes, our contacts with the United Nations also help us in our work as peacemakers. But my authority can only ever be a moral one, it depends entirely on whether I am convincing. This also applies to my colleagues when they appear in religious communities other than their own. In contrast, the authority of ­a Holy Father is indisputable.

ZEIT: Are you sure? The loss of reputation of the church is currently enormous.

Karam: Nevertheless, this is something different. Religions for Peace is a secular organization that seeks to unite the religions of the world. Nor do I claim any authority over the world’s religions. God forbid. Perhaps the difficulties I face as Secretary-General are similar to those of a UN Secretary-General: he has to gain the respect of 193 governments. I have to gain the respect of hundreds of representatives of the faith. There are delicate cases where I ask my deputy, a man, to speak from the outset.

TIME: Why?

Karam: A good reason why he is more likely to be listened to in certain situations is that he is more experienced. One bad reason for not listening to female negotiators is that it feels more comfortable to pay attention to a male boss. The process is subtle yet obvious. You can even see it in Zoom conferences. A woman says something, no one responds. A man says the same thing, everyone agrees. In religions, add to that the fact that women were never socialized to listen to female bosses either.

TIME: Nevertheless, Religions for Peace has been successful under your leadership: you came into office before the outbreak of the Coronavirus pandemic, on March 1, 2020 …

Karam: … and two weeks later, the lockdown began in many countries. New York quickly became the epicenter of the pandemic in the US. But we quickly adapted to the situation and filled the time we would otherwise have lost to travel with work. At home in Westchester County, I, myself was able to get on the computer first thing in the morning instead of driving hours into the city.

ZEIT: You have set up a program to protect religious places against violence. At the end of 2020, a world meeting took place in Lindau on Lake Constance, and the next one will follow at the beginning of October. What else have you achieved so far?

Karam: First, during the pandemic, we established an interfaith humanitarian fund. Alongside the major religious aid organizations, we wanted to show that service to others can also be done together. After all, every crisis divides and is, therefore, a test of cohesion. Then we strengthened local communities and set up interfaith advisory councils for Unicef and UNHCR. We promoted infection control in all faith communities, and later vaccination, funded educational radio programs and videos. Our message was: follow advice from organizations like the WHO.

ZEIT: Was it difficult to convince believers?

Karam: No, but I admit that it was easier for the younger ones to do without the service on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. However, this led to high losses in donations. Personally, I didn’t find it hard to just pray at home. I am a Muslim, but frequent mosque attendance was never a must for me.

ZEIT: And what about the international conflicts in which religions are involved?

Karam: In Myanmar, where the Rohingya Muslim minority is persecuted, we have succeeded in bringing political, military, and religious leaders to the table. The Norwegians were particularly helpful, as was the country’s top Catholic, Cardinal Bo. Our platform was the only one in three years where any talks took place at all. The principle of Religions for Peace is to bring in outside authorities who are respected by all as impartial.

ZEIT: Are religions today rather peacemakers or warmongers?

Karam: They can be both, but it is important to me that they are perceived as a factor. Because: There is no successful peace policy without a deeper understanding of religion. As a Muslim woman, it naturally pains me how much Muslims are seen as a threat in the West. But this Islamophobia should not be seen in isolation; it is part of the other discrimination based on faith, skin color, gender, and so on. What is underestimated is how much enmity politics sows among religions.

ZEIT: How did you experience the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks in New York?

Karam: I would rather tell you how I experienced 9/11 at the time. I had just returned that day from Durban, South Africa, from a conference on xenophobia. I was in a taxi going home from the airport when the second plane hit the World Trade Center. I’ll never forget how the news came on the radio – and the newscasters were in complete shock, perplexed, as were we. What on earth was happening? I also remember my mixed feelings as a Muslim. First, the shame that it was Muslim terrorists who attacked my adopted home of New York. Although I am Egyptian by birth, it was an attack on my country. Then I also felt fear and anger.

TIME: Why?

Karam: Because I knew that my religion would be held responsible, and it was. The policy of the US and NATO was hard to bear because it hurt us Muslims enough that our faith had been abused to justify absolute horror.

ZEIT: And how are you now, twenty years later?

Karam: All the feelings of that time come up again – intensified by the failure of the USA in Afghanistan. The lesson for me is that religions when they don’t ally themselves but allow themselves to be used by politics, do the worst. That applies to Islamists as well as evangelicals. And that is precisely why we at Religions for Peace want to create an environment in which no religion dominates the other. For democracy to work, religions must work together.

ZEIT: And what do you expect from the Taliban?

Karam: What annoys me is that people simply don’t understand how the Taliban could become so strong. They are perceived as the ultimate other, as a threat from outside, but they are Afghans. The colonial gaze of the Americans has prevented them from seeing that. They only saw what they wanted to see. This brings me back to my theme from the beginning: arrogance prevents us from understanding conflict. The West must now swallow its pride and listen to what the Afghans are saying. Otherwise, we won’t understand how the country can find peace.

ZEIT: What are you most afraid of?

Karam: That the Taliban feel cornered and attack women in particular. Hurting women is a symbol of power, it’s like a flag that the ruler holds high. Otherwise, I fear that the Taliban’s success is encouraging militant Islamists around the world.

ZEIT: What can Religions for Peace do for Afghanistan, and what can you achieve, as a woman who does not even wear a headscarf?

Karam: Where necessary, I do that. We must now ensure that the conflict partners listen to each other. We are in a learning phase, not an action phase. My advantage as a woman: I can be a hostess at the round table of religions without appearing dominant. I can invite and ask questions. What matters is whether we succeed in listening. It is the most underestimated method of peacemaking.

The interview was conducted by Evelyn Finger

The next meeting of the World Federation of Religious Leaders will take place in Lindau from 4 to 7 October.
The focus will be on “Generations in Dialogue”. More at www.ringforpeace.org